Del Jolly: The Frontline of Decriminalizing Psychedelics

[00:00:00] Boomer: Welcome to decoding superhuman. This show is a deep dive into obsessions with health performance, and how to elevate the human experience. I explore the latest tools, science and technology with experts in various fields of human optimization. This is your host boomer. Enjoy the journey.

My guest today is unlimited science's co-founder Del Jolly. Now Del and I got connected through a gentleman by the name of Scott Carney. And Scott thank you so much for this connection. We had a fantastic conversation today about Psilocybin and his John Hopkins study through unlimited sciences. We got into a little bit of medicinal mushrooms.

Del's work both in cannabis and the decriminalization there, as well as the decriminalized Denver movement. You're gonna enjoy this podcast because, well, we talk about a lot and especially with the movement in psychedelics, the show notes for this one are decoding superhuman.com/del that's D E L. And enjoy my conversation with Dell jolly

Del I know this is a long time coming, so welcome. 

[00:01:35] Del: Thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. I'm appreciate your, uh, patience with. Scheduling back and forth. So glad to be here. 

[00:01:41] Boomer: I, I think, I think it is actually me on this one. I, there is a time where I had that word or, or thought I had that, that word that I can't mention without getting banned on every single news source.

Oh, these days. And, uh, yeah, so, you know, everything's good, but I have to thank Scott Carney for the introduction and, uh, you know, I would love, or we're gonna get into certainly a lot of what you're doing, um, in the nonprofit and so many other things. But, uh, if it's okay with you, I wanna start because there are a lot of business people that listen to this show and you've spent quite a lot of time in the business development world.

Uh, what brought you in to the cannabis space and I guess lately psychedelics as well. What brought you? What got you really interested in that space?

[00:02:32] Del: I was, uh, running my own, uh, residential. Flipping business, where we were working with, uh, some big outfits, some, uh, real estate investment trust, like colony capital colony homes, and, and these folks who were just buying house after house, after house, after the crash.

And I flipping the houses and it's fine, but pretty unfulfilling. And, uh, I mean, as far as you know, for, for the soul, I, uh, had seen a lot of cannabis movement. I was very much against cannabis, I think in 2012, when it, and when they voted to legalize, I don't, I don't know if I did or didn't vote to legalize it.

I'd hope to think that my libertarian side came out and I said, yeah, go for it. You know, because I I'd like to think people should have, and we're talking in Colorado, 

[00:03:22] Boomer: right? 

[00:03:22] Del: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. In Colorado, when they, they went to legalize in 2012, but I was, I was very much against marijuana and I'd always say, you know, The whole, you know, script from there, you know, we for losers and whatnot while yeah.

You know, drinking no problem. Right. And 

[00:03:39] Boomer: so, uh, that certainly resonates with me. Well, I mean, that was my kind of story that I had as well, growing up, it was more, you know, weed was the, uh, I don't know if you remember fast times at Ridgemont high. Yeah. Uh, like spa. I, I just thought that people that did it would end up like spa.

[00:03:56] Del: Yeah. sure. Sure. And, uh, I did too. And, uh, so, but through my, through my real estate stuff, I purchased a house that has a couple acres and I got back into gardening really, really into gardening. And, uh, I had read Michael poll's book. If people are familiar with Michael poll. Now it's very much from his new book, how to change your mind.

But he has a lot of previous books that are definitely put him on the map. Like the Omnivore's dilemma. That's what I had read. And I was just thinking. Food is medicine and, and we need to be growing our own food and having a kind of a soap box there. And one of my friends saying, wow, you really talk a lot about food is medicine.

Why don't you understand that about cannabis? And I, you know, okay. And then I saw a documentary called the culture high, and I saw this father fighting for his son's right to use cannabis for his epileptic seizures. And it crushed me, man. It made me I've got three kids and I thought, man, I'm, I'm a huge part of the problem where I've got a big mouth about what cannabis is without a true understanding of, you know, what's really happening here and, uh, dove into it a lot.

I got connected with an organization called the realm of caring. This was founded by my co-founder now in, uh, unlimited sciences. Heather Jackson. It was the organization that started in my book, the cannabis movement here in Colorado, their children Heather's child is the second person to take Charlotte's web.

Next to Charlotte. Realm of caring was started by Charlotte's mom and my co-founder and unlimited sciences, Heather Jackson. And they just started serving a lot of people, helping them understand how to use cannabis for serious ailments. And so, uh, realm of Caring's been around for quite some time. Now they are an organization that's worked with Johns Hopkins for many years on how people are using cannabis and what for, and, uh, so at the time they were running a campaign around chronic traumatic encephalopathy, constant concussions.

Mm-hmm I had a lot of friends who fought in the UFC. Yeah. And so the concussion game was kind of interesting to me. Uh, just kind of started volunteering and sponsoring a golf tournament that they had and. I had this huge shift, this change of like, oh my God, I, I need to, you know, atone for my sins for all the time.

I've said cannabis is for losers. This is not, this is for people who need help. Um, it's for people who need to feel better it's for professional athletes. And so I, um, ask the realm of care. I'm in Longmont, Colorado, which is just north of Denver by about 45 minutes realm of carings in Colorado Springs.

And I, uh, couldn't travel there. And so they said, well, Hey, you should work for Charlotte's web. And this is about five years ago or so. And so I started with Charlotte's web and just, it totally changed my life in the sense of just seeing how many people were being helped, how many people needed to be educated and, uh, myself included mm-hmm and, uh, that was the beginning of my plant medicine journey.

So that's how I got involved there. So 

[00:07:08] Boomer: you've, I mean, with, uh, with Charlotte's web, but also with colony and some of these, I mean, these jobs are not easy, right. They're kind of high pressure, uh, high stress jobs at times. Um, have you found, uh, in your own life, or even with some of your colleagues that, uh, things like Charlotte's web, the CBD, um, or other aspects of the cannabis plant, have you found it helpful with just kind of dealing with any sort of performance still 

[00:07:37] Del: difficulties?

Yeah, to be a hundred percent honest. I don't, I don't really smoke cannabis. It just isn't. 

[00:07:43] Boomer: I mean, neither do I, to be fair. 

[00:07:45] Del: Yeah. But, but I know a tremendous amount of people who do for, to help them to help them. Keep anxiety at bay, help them with stress. The physical aspect for the majority of my friends who are, uh, professional athletes, any high level athletes, they are smoking cannabis.

That's mm-hmm, , that's a fact. I do absolutely take CBD, um, whether or not I'm really feeling something, the things I do know about it, it's like, uh, just seems like something that, you know, when I eat broccoli, I don't feel broccoli. I don't feel great when I eat broccoli, but definitely vegetables. What's that?

Yeah. 

[00:08:23] Boomer: Great. 

[00:08:24] Del: Quote. yeah. You know, so it's like introducing this plant that has evolved with us. We have an cannabinoid system inside our body, which receives cannabinoids, like THC. That's the one everybody knows Tetra. Cannabinol that? That's what gets you high? Right? Mm-hmm or CBD cannabinol or cannabidiol.

I mean, there's, there's over a, well, over a hundred, uh, cannabinoids. And how they are so easily received in the body. It makes me think, okay, these are, these should be part of our diet. And so, um, I definitely take it. I definitely do know that I sleep harder when I, when I use it. Um, I do a lot of juujitsu, so I definitely feel like I'm taking it to manage some of those aches and pains, but you know, it's not as prominent in my life, uh, in the sense of, I don't see it immediately, but then again, I could drink a red bull and take a nap.

So I'm not a, I'm not a good, uh, candidate to kind of base whether or not it's working. But when you see a child having a seizure and you see them get introduced, uh, cannabis and it stop immediately, there is absolutely something happening inside their body. That seems to be overall good. So I consume it kind of for long term health.

That's what I'm always looking at. You know, how, how am I gonna be functioning? When I'm 80, 90, a hundred years old, I think health is coming so far that the, the ailments we're gonna have as humans will be more cognitive than anything. I think our minds will outlive our bodies and I am trying to do everything I can to make sure that my cognition is there when I'm older, because I think my body should be pretty good to a point.

But, you know, no matter what, even if you're 110, you're, you're gonna have issues with that. Right. Mm-hmm if you're super fit of, so, but your mind can be sharp as well. 

[00:10:25] Boomer: Of course, of course now, uh, because look, I am potentially moving to Colorado and I, I love Colorado as a state and sort of the progression that it's made and the leadership it's really taken in many different avenues.

Um, one of those leaderships you mentioned earlier was, uh, sort of the legalization of cannabis, if you will. And I know you were involved in the discussion around, uh, decriminalization of, of psilocybin. Uh, how does that really, how did that discussion come about in Colorado? Because, uh, you know, THC, isn't legal in all 50 states yet.

It's not, descheduled, it's still schedule one drug. And so how does a state like Colorado go from, okay, THCs on the docket to, okay, now we're gonna decriminalize psilocybin, which. There are a lot of skeptics. Michael Paul included that came out afterwards and said, okay, maybe this is a little too soon, but I want to just hear from like a firsthand account, how did that all get started?

[00:11:32] Del: Yeah. Well, fortunately, you know, our founding generations understood the, uh, the importance of rights, right? Mm-hmm , I mean, we're a large country, California. Shouldn't be making decisions for Texas and Texas. Shouldn't be making Cal, uh, decisions for New York and, and, and these types of things. So states' rights is something that Colorado has leaned in.

We were re more recently a blue state. We used to always be a red state mm-hmm . Um, but I do think there's that pioneer that's part of the attitude, whether you're blue, red, whatever it is, uh, in that ability to, you know, strap the boots on by yourself. And that's kind of where I see health going, where people are starting to realize, okay, Guess what doctors are humans.

They can make mistakes. They're not these gods. They're not right all the time. And we're a pretty educated populous. And we think that cannabis is a, a good route to go. And, and now we also think that psilocybin is, and so as people start to learn and understand that cannabis is a healing plant, um, and it, and it should be used at people's leisure.

Statistically alcohol is the most dangerous drug in the world and we, yeah, exactly the hell out of it. We not only we promote it, we encourage it. And, uh, that's not a good thing. But at the end of the day, we have said, okay, you are a sovereign enough person to make your own damn choices. We'll put in some laws and you need to follow those rules.

And then you could participate in the most dangerous drug in the world. We've set that up. That's a, that's a reality. 

[00:13:19] Boomer: And just for, for everybody listening here, I'm gonna link to the study because I think it's fascinating if you haven't seen it. Uh, the Lancet produced a study that basically, uh, demonstrated that alcohol has a larger effect on society, negative effect, of course, than suicide, or even LSD in some of these other things that I'm sure we'll get into today.

Uh, but yeah, sorry I interrupted the, uh, 

[00:13:44] Del: no, no, no, that's great. It's good to have those studies to show that this isn't just me stating this, this is a, this is an absolute fact, studied fact. Alcohol makes heroin look like, you know, white bread. So mm-hmm, , uh, we as a culture have somehow allowed that and, uh, we allow it to.

Destroy families. We allow it to do a lot of terrible things with the hopes and knowing like, Hey, I guess the good outweighs the bad, you know, to be able to have a cocktail after work or something like that. Like, okay. And so, um, Colorado has OB obviously been a pioneer in, in advancing these plant medicines.

Um, after cannabis had happened, I had happened to have a psychedelic experience with my time at Charlotte's web. And it was something that basically rocked my world and made me realize, oh my God, that's what I've been looking for for the last 36 years when you're kind of like, you know, what's the, you know, always this deep search going on.

And what I had experienced was a, um, compound called five methyine methyl trip. Tomine five MEO is what it's called. And, uh, it, it was, um, um, Powerful experience. I knew that that was the future. And so I, do 

[00:15:07] Boomer: you mind taking people through that experience a little bit, because 5:00 AM EEO, DMT is something we've got into a little bit on the show before.

Um, but what was that experience like if you can kind of, you know, to use the, the phrase set and setting, if you can kinda lay it out for us. Sure. 

[00:15:24] Del: So, so one thing though, just really clarify, like, if you listen to Joe Rogan, he's always talking about DMT, ethyl Tomine I wanna be crystal clear that five methy ethyl Tomine is a completely different substance five methy ethyl Tomine is also referred to as the toed.

It's a secretion from the, uh, um, parato gland on a, on a toad where they milk it and they get the, uh, the poison. And then you. You basically smoke it. And it's one in inhalation and it lasts for about 15 minutes, which is very similar to dimethyltryptamine where you also smoke it. And it's about a 15 minute experience.

The difference is, is one is incredibly expansive. And, uh, basically it's the comprehension that we all are one and there is no separation between all of us and we're limitless. Dimethyltryptamine, I've always referred to is kind of recreational. It's very psychedelic, a lot of colors and interesting, weird things.

Not incredibly insightful, but so my experience with that is I had gone to a ceremony where there's about 15 of us. There was a shaman who was introducing this to us and we sat around for a couple of days. I never experienced, never thought I would, it felt incredibly familiar, which is such a weird thing because it's the most strange experience I've ever had. Yet, it feels like going home. And so that experience just completely shifted everything about what I wanted to do with my life.

And I'd had the, the groundwork of cannabis of showing me, Hey, this is not what you were told. It was, there's so much potential here. And then a deep realization that that's the same thing that's going on with psychedelics. Mm-hmm. There's so much potential there's so many lies that are being told about it.

And I think it's to keep people submissive, to keep them not really knowing. Uh, This whole consumerism bullshit that we participate in. Boy, we're never gonna find it. My, my my uncle, if this, if there's a lot of business folks who are kind of, um, listening this podcast, my uncle clarified for me, the, the perfect amount of money and the perfect amount of money, you know, when you strive.

And you're like, okay, when I do this, you know, then things are gonna be okay, but the perfect amount of money is just a little bit more, just a little bit more right. And it's always gonna be just a little bit more. And so until you get right with yourself about, you know, what's truly important and that's what I've done through these psychedelics, it's allowed me find a lot of peace and not chase things that are never, ever gonna satisfy you.

You know? And so, um, after that experience, I knew that this was a, um, a real. I knew that I needed to spend my time advancing it so I could make sure that my children aren't going to jail for taking their own minds and their hands and not being told from some draconian moral basis that might not be an alignment with what I find is moral.

That shouldn't be guiding our decisions on Liberty. And as a, as a conservative, I'm shocked that this isn't a conservative movement, you know, seems to be a lot of, uh, um, pushback from Republicans. And I would ultimately say that's probably where I align mostly mm-hmm and because libertarians aren't really a thing, you know, in our, in our society.

[00:19:14] Boomer: Yeah. As much as I wish they were absolutely. I mean, it's a two party system and so it doesn't always work that way. 

[00:19:21] Del: Yeah. Well, hopefully things will change because it's been pretty, pretty drab for the last. A while agree with you. Yeah. Anyway, uh, I had researched, you know, suicide and I started diving in on suicide because I was like, I think that's gonna probably be the next one.

I'd seen studies from Johns Hopkins. And I had, uh, found out that Kevin Matthews, the campaign director for decriminalized Denver, uh, was running a campaign. So I reached out to him in April of 2018 kind of found out where they were. It was a small group of really passionate people just trying to do their very best.

And, uh, pretty quickly we started pulling in more people to help, uh, just kind of lift this off to whatever degree we could. Uh, long story short, we worked pretty hard under the radar for, um, a full year. There was a group that had been doing it before I got involved heavily. And then basically Kevin kind of spun off as the, the director.

That's when I got involved, we worked on it for a year. There was about kinda like eight or nine core temp, uh, people who were trying to figure out like, you know, how the hell did we do this? You know, a huge group of volunteers who would catch, you know, signatures and get the word out who absolutely want it for us.

And in, uh, May 7th, 2019, the city of Denver decriminalized psilocybin within the city. So 

[00:20:56] Boomer: mm-hmm, , that is to you explain for people what decriminalization means, uh, in this case, because I think, um, you know, if you go go to Portugal, right. Where, uh, a lot of these drugs are decriminalized and I live not too far from there.

Uh, there's a difference in people's minds, what decriminalized means versus what it actually is. Do you mind explaining that for a second? 

[00:21:20] Del: Yeah, I guess the best way to kind of think about what this future's gonna look like. I see, there's like four categories. You have decriminalization, you have legalization, you have medicalization, and then you have like religious use.

And so decriminalization is basically city funds will not be used to prosecute people within the city of Denver for these crimes. Okay. It's still illegal. Uh, if you have a large amount, you're still going to jail, but if I'm jaywalking and I have a small amount of psilocybin and I'm walking across the street with it, I'm going to get in trouble for jaywalking.

There's no funds that could be used to get me in trouble for my, for my psilocybin. So that, from what I see is probably one of the most equitable ways to go about this. That means everybody can have it. They're not gonna be penalized now, whether or not that's. The case with police officers that's to be decided in courts.

Um, but for now in the city of Denver, it's decriminalized multiple, uh, uh, cities and states have followed since then, Oakland followed very much right after us. They decriminalized all inthe gyms. This includes, you know, iowaska, uh, Wachuma San Pedro, uh, just plant medicines. Uh, we've got Ann Arbor now, uh, DC too, right.

DC did it as well. The whole state of Oregon decriminalized all drugs, which is the, the best thing to come out of that election when there's a big, they, so they decriminalized all drugs and they legalize psilocybin. So stepping into the legalization, what does that look like? That's a model. That's a, that's a, that's a business model.

Okay. And so what Oregon has done is. They are allowing for therapeutic use to where eventually you'll be able to sit down with your, uh, therapist and utilize psilocybin in their office, how that all is gonna unfold is not, it's like basically a two year 

[00:23:30] Boomer: rollout, but yeah. Cause the, the rules for that haven't really been rolled out 

[00:23:35] Del: at this moment, right?

Yeah. They've got a committee who's kind of, what's the best way to, to roll this out now. I'm I am okay with legalization and then, and well, let's talk about medicalization too. Medicalization is what other organizations are trying to do, where they say, we're gonna take this through an FDA process and, and we're gonna patent various things about that.

And that's the way we're gonna get it to the people. That way maybe insurance will cover it. Things of that nature. Mm-hmm I am for access. Access is, um, really important how we do that. That's that's where I start getting a little bit, um, concerned. I personally, and, and let's just honor the religious and the indigenous use of these plant medicines that have been going on well before the United States was a thing, 

[00:24:27] Boomer: you know, I, I think that is very important to lay out, right?

Like it's not just Peru, like this has been happening in native American tribes, um, for quite quite some time. 

[00:24:39] Del: Right? Absolutely. So peyote is a sacrament and actually the, uh, um, sex of the native American at church have asked decriminalized nature to take peyote off of those lists for the decriminalization.

They want it to remain a criminal, uh, deal that because peyote is so susceptible to going extinct, it takes 20 years to grow, but it takes a very, very long time. They've championed this forever. We're just kind of steamrolling and walking in and saying, Hey, thanks for, thanks for dying for this. When we are persecuting you for this.

Not too long ago, and now we're gonna step in and we're gonna patent these things and we're gonna, you know, save everybody. And so let's definitely honor the native Americans. Who've done this for quite some time and if they keep it, uh, criminalized, then they could use it for their religious purposes, which is very, very important as well.

So going back to Oregon and that model, and what I believe is decriminalization is what I believe is the most equitable model that we, we can see that's gonna be received by the politicians and, and city councils and things of that nature. There's so many people have, you know, they it's utopia or nothing, and they don't understand like, look, we've gotta, it's the give us an inch and we'll take a mile.

And that's what the plan is. It's like when Heather Jackson in the realm of caring were trying to change laws around cannabis, they didn't go in there and say, legalize, THC, , you know, Utah's not having that, you know, some of these conservative states, they still haven't done anything to, to legalize CBD. So you go in and say, Hey, CBD is non psychoactive or non psychotropic.

And, uh, it's helping our children with, with epilepsy. Please allow this and states would go, okay. And then after they learned, okay, that's not a scary, then they, you know, move it down the line. So anyway, and 

[00:26:39] Boomer: I know maps for instance, is doing this as well as your nonprofit will get into your nonprofit here in a little bit, in terms of just having and opening those discussions, uh, in some ways at a federal level too.

Um, in's very, 

[00:26:53] Del: very good, but yeah. Yeah. And so, uh, decriminalization just is something that's broadly sweeping legalization is something. Okay. Well, if it's legalized, then I'm a poor person. Let me promise you this, a psilocybin session in Oregon with a therapist. It's gonna cost thousands of dollars. Of course.

And, and the reason is, is because it's an eight hour deal, it's actually probably an overnight deal. And so who's gonna be paid to sit around for a full 24 hours before you're released for 50 bucks. No one. So that's our reach for me now, right? Where, and also there's a long history of use safe use by the people for thousands of years.

So that legalization model, I absolutely support it. There's a lot of people who are gonna need that. And I welcome that after we decriminalize the medical model, I am all for a, uh, pharmaceutical application where someone who doesn't have the time to X, Y, or Z, you know, go to. Or find the community who's doing this, or sit with a therapist, they might have to go to their doctor's office and their doctor ask their doctor is psilocybin right for you.

Right. Mm-hmm , I'm okay with that as well. As long as everybody is, has access and they're not getting in trouble, no one's going to jail for the same things that are legal. It's just like, it's, it's a damn pity that, uh, the amount of people have made millions upon millions and millions of dollars for the exact same thing that people are sitting in prison for, for life and not the exact same thing, way more than what they did, you know?

Yeah. Selling a pound of weed back in 1980 and getting a life sentence for it. Where in 2020, you're making millions of dollars for it. The, I always say the moment one tax dollar is collected on an illegal drug. Everybody who's in prison for that adios. 

[00:29:03] Boomer: Yeah, I, I think there's a huge, uh, conversation that people like Steve D Angelo and others are pushing around.

Um, uh, just making sure that the prison, people that are in prison be released. Right. Because, um, it, it is unfortunate that while we've progressed so much on the legal side, and yes, there's a long way to go, but, uh, there's just still so many people that aren't getting recognized that the laws no longer, uh, fit the crime.

Right. And so they should be released. And so I think I hear you, like there's a lot to be done in, in our 

[00:29:42] Del: prisons for sure. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, as that, as that progressed, as we, as we passed May 7th, 2019, um, I just had seen the path with cannabis. And seeing that there's gonna be some story that airs on CNN about a veteran or a mother or someone who's used suicide.

And to help, you know, with PTSD anxiety end of life, you know, whatever the ailment will be aired one day and already they're starting to do that. A group of people are saying, man, I, I don't know anything about that. I wanna learn. I need to understand, we need to understand how the community's been using it.

So we launched unlimited sciences, which is a psychedelic research nonprofit it's in the same spirit of the realm of caring, what we did with realm of caring. And, uh, what we're doing is we've launched a study with Johns Hopkins university on the naturalistic use OFS assignment. So basically what are, what are, what are the people doing in the quote unquote, real world?

How are they utilizing civil assignment? These studies, you see, these are, these are, you know, People are going into Johns Hopkins university. They're sitting on a couch with two therapists. It's a very, um, curated, uh, and highly effective way of doing it. But let's face it. We're not doing that. The people aren't doing that, the people are doing it out in the woods with their friends.

They're doing it in ceremonial settings. Maybe they're doing it with their therapist underground. Right? And so if people could in, uh, enroll in our study to help us understand what the good and the bad is, I feel that it's an opportunity for us to take that data show best practices to some degree mm-hmm and give it back to those who are gonna, um, utilize these medicines on their own without a doctor it's gonna happen.

It's just like putting your head in the stand because something's illegal is absolutely foolish, right? Not to understand how heroin's affecting the, the general population. Is a dangerous play, right? Oh, it's illegal. I don't wanna know that's crazy. And so, um, psilocybin, our study can not only help inform best practices to degree, but also inform clinical studies.

We could show Johns Hopkins. Hey, look, we're getting a lot of reports. We've had over 4,000 people enroll in our study. We're getting a lot of reports that people are using this. I, I, this is just an example. Maybe they're using it for Lyme's disease. Maybe they're using it for, um, Tourette syndrome, which I have heard, I've heard of people say I have facial ticks.

The only thing that helps cannabis doesn't help psilocybin has helped me with my facial politics. It's the only thing that ever has. I've never heard of that. And I'm sure there's tons of university. People have not either. So tapping into the, the deep, well of knowledge of people. Who've carried this for a very, very long time before.

Other people saw an opportunity to, you know, take some pump and dump scheme public. Uh, if we could understand those practices and give it back to them, I think that's a good way to honor the, uh, community. Who's kind of carried the torch 

[00:33:05] Boomer: for a while. AB absolutely. And, uh, Delph it's okay with you. I'm gonna come back to this study because what you guys are doing is incredibly important.

And I want to come back to that and go into it a little bit more in detail. You mentioned the pump and dump, uh, thing. And so I, I have to go through this with you because right now we're kind of sitting in this, uh, I, I don't wanna call it a bubble, but it's certainly a hot topic right now, uh, where companies are going public with very little revenue or nothing in terms of revenue, they're raising tons and tons of money, uh, around.

Uh, either ideas that are very, um, simple or they've essentially patented compounds that are exactly the same as, uh, well, psilocybin for instance, uh, what do you think, I guess, what do you think the wake up call is gonna be? Because it seems to me right now that there is just a lot of money going towards the space and that there's a lot of people that are saying, Hey, money's coming here.

And so I'm gonna take advantage of it. What do you think that wake up call needs to be? 

[00:34:20] Del: Well, I mean, it's, it's your faith in the good old federal government, right? Like that's, that's why I'm hesitant. I, I don't doubt anyone's gonna make money on this. I don't doubt that compass pathways is isn't gonna be, it's already proven to be an incredibly, uh, a good stock.

I don't know where I sit with them ethically right now, you know? I don't know if I could support a business that seemingly is in it for the money. And when they say no, but you have, you have articles coming out about George Goldsmith, telling the university of Oregon, you know, that this legalization models a bad idea, we shouldn't be doing that.

That, that doesn't make sense to me where it's not, this is safe. I don't need a state to tell me that this is safe. Psilocybin is the, the, actually one of the safest, uh, compounds in the world. Just to give you an ID, the LD 50 lethal dose at 50%. You'd have to eat like 32 pounds of mushrooms, mushrooms. 

[00:35:31] Boomer: I mean, for those who have never tried mushrooms before, you're not even gonna come close, you're talking like max, a couple of grams.

Uh, so yeah, 

[00:35:39] Del: I mean, a, a humongous dose of psilocybin is seven grams. That's a massive, a hero's dose starts at five. So, so it's incredibly safe. So it's really interesting that they would, you know, act as if this needs to be provided by doctors and, and all this kind of stuff. And so I don't doubt that they won't have some success and it's already shown right now that particular company, but I think there's a lot of other ones who are, um, definitely betting on people being super interested in the potential of psychedelics and raising money and not really having a real well thought out plan.

How are what I mean, marijuana is federally illegal. There are a. Million studies and a million cases to show that that's absolute bullshit. And if you have something like, you know, the, the disease that shall not be named, and there's a vaccine that has been produced as rapidly as it has, and it's already got FDA approval yet there's 2,500 plus years of, um, use cases of safety with cannabis and they can't put it together.

That's bullshit. There's, there's something a little bit more nefarious behind that in my, uh, conspiracy mind, I guess, whatever mm-hmm , I mean, that's kind of, it'd be, it'd be hard pressed to show me that they're not doing something wrong. Uh, when the efficacy is there, we know it's safe yet. They, so, so to think that they're gonna shift on psilocybin so quickly, which actually alters the way you think and actually shows that, you know, That system that they are advancing is a lot of bullshit.

Why would they do anything to help advance that? And so to bet on that, becoming legal, it's not something I personally foresee happening. What I would state is it's the, it's the pick actions and shovels, right? It's what is being built around the psychedelic space that could be used outside of the psychedelic space.

And then if it does lift off or some states legalized some cities legalized. So there's a little bit of a rollout you're there, but you know, what's happening with ketamine. That's a schedule too. That's being used quite a bit. Um, there's some platforms like Maya health, uh, which is my co-founder David champion.

He is starting that, and that's, that's a tool that could be used by any therapist or doctor to better understand what's happening with their patients. So whether or not psilocybin becomes legal. It's a pretty incredible tool that they're building there to help, um, better track outcomes. So those are the things I think are worth investing in, you know, the, the pick access and shovels, right?

So not the actual substances. And the other thing too, is like, I don't, I don't foresee a legal dispensary type thing going on because, uh, you know, what's it gonna cost for an eight, 15 bucks. I participate in psilocybin. It's a huge part of my life. Maybe once, maybe twice a year, I'll use a big dose, a $15 dose.

Right? So I'm a $30 customer if I'm really getting after it. , 

[00:39:04] Boomer: that's not yeah. $30 customer, but I'm also curious because, uh, you are in this world and you do, uh, speak to a lot of people. And part of, um, some of the integration processes, and I know Maya is associated with a friend, a third wave, uh, is Paul Austin.

They include microdosing. And so if we're kind of in this discussion around improving health, improving wellbeing, and just giving people a generally better life, um, Psychedelics have been profound for me. And it sounds like for you as well, do you think, think that there's a path to microdosing, uh, becoming, uh, not just accepted or even, uh, not just talked about as it is now, but more accepted in then potentially available in a dispensary so to speak?

[00:39:57] Del: Yeah, I, I do. I mean, as far as it's, I, that could be unrolled very much like, you know, the cottage industry of CBD where people are, are producing that. Uh, I'm not sure. I, I believe in it. I think it's, uh, in important. And what I would say is like, microdosing is effective and I know that, but I'll state it right here on this podcast.

I believe functional mushrooms, you know, Ray sheet lines, main chaga, uh, Cortis have just as much, if not more. Potential than suicide and mushrooms. We just don't wanna look at it because we see the shiny object and the cool kids doing the psychedelic deal, where the potential in these mushrooms, I was at the Telluride mushroom Fest this weekend.

They are discovering brand new mushrooms, almost every single day, right there. There's a whole kingdom that is being ignored and has been ignored in the, in Western culture for a very long time. It has so much potential, so much potential. And I think things that are, there's no handcuffs around the legality.

Uh, there's an incredible amount of data already out there in Japan. I thought I heard that like 80% of pharmaceuticals that they're developing there are coming from functional S or, or the, the fungi kingdom. That's tremendous. And, uh, we just look at shiny objects and want to chase it. And I believe in, and I absolutely do.

I advocate, I dedicate my life to it. But what I'm thinking and where I'm heading on a, on another venture is the concept that the fungi kingdom is neglected right now. And if we started putting some more money into that and trying to understand some of the complex compounds that are in so many different mushrooms, when I say RACI lines, you know, it's like five of so many, what is the potential there?

Why aren't we looking there? Because there's no handcuffs around it. That's where I want to go. That's where we're, we're focusing a little bit of effort on a, a totally different venture that I'm haven't, we haven't really launched just yet, but. I believe in the whole kingdom. 

[00:42:18] Boomer: If, if it's okay with you, we can go into some of those benefits cuz I've had, um, you know, Eric Perro is, is a very good friend.

And I mentioned to you before, mentioned him to you and I'm gonna connect you guys after this. Uh, he runs a very large farm in Finland where they're producing some of these mushrooms. Rahi chaga lions mean, uh, let's go into some of those benefits. Cause I think this, those are particularly interesting for those listening to the show.

Um, I know I do, I use lions mean almost daily, um, and Rahi is pretty much a part of my ni nightly cocktail. But what are some of those benefits that you see from some of these mushrooms? 

[00:42:58] Del: Yeah. And I guess I'll, I'll spill the beans to a degree because, um, you don't 

[00:43:02] Boomer: have to spill beans. We can always have you back on.

[00:43:04] Del: No, I mean now talk about it later. We're we're about to launch here pretty soon. We're actually just trying to do more R and D to make sure that the products that we kick out are efficacious. Um, but, uh, I'm launching a mushroom company called UBO, uh, UBO is the descriptor of the top of a calf I'm I'm actually launching it with, uh, Rashad Evans.

And, uh, who's a former UFC fighter hall of Famer, former champ and, uh, Jake plum. Who's the former quarterback for Arizona and in the Denver Broncos, uh, we are hoping to launch sometime in, in November we have a functional mushroom bar. One of the ideas that we kind of see is like, there's this micro people are afraid of mushrooms.

We have a, a functional mushroom bar that it it's phenomenal. It taste incredibly good. And I think the idea of like, wow, okay, these are actually, aren't a scary, as I thought, they were could lead to people, utilizing some of the other things that we're looking to launch like capsules and, and some gummies, and these gummies are, and capsules and things are, are, um, uh, the ingredients are functional mushrooms.

Like CEPT, CEPT have been shown to. Uh, help with, um, ATP production. So, you know, basically exercising, opening up your lungs, respiratory benefits there Cortis the Cortis and then, uh, is found in the Himalayas from a ghost moth. This caterpillar, um, gets infected by the fungi in sprouts, a Corti step out of its head.

The Sherpa gathered those mushrooms and the Sherpa would be eating cor CEPS as they hiked, you know, 16, 18, you know, thousand foot, uh, peaks. And so they, it helps with the lung capacity there. Um, lion's main, there's a lot of studies talking about how it comes out, uh, helps with neurogenesis. That's incredibly interesting to interesting to us, and especially like Rashad and Jake who dedicated their lives to quote unquote combat sports.

NFL's definitely a combat sport and getting hit a lot. They wanna make sure their cognition's on point. So lion main has some studies coming out showing that it's beneficial. There Rahi is, um, seemingly pretty effective to help with, uh, sleep. They're all adaptogens though. And so an adaptogen is kind of a different category where basically the way that we foresee it is functional mushrooms are gonna help you with whatever your ailments are.

You know, they're gonna bring you back into homeostasis for what you need. Maybe it's pain relief, maybe it's better sleep or whatnot, but to just kind of pigeonhole them lines means just for your. I don't know about that. There's some, you know, I'm, there's 

[00:45:45] Boomer: a lot, I mean, you can have some pretty cool dreams on lion main too.

Yeah. 

[00:45:48] Del: So, yeah. And microdosing is coupled with lion main, like the, the sta stack Paul sta who's a pioneer, the sta stack is a hundred milligrams of psilocybin dried, powdered psilocybin, 400 milligrams of lines made in a hundred milligrams of Nien to kind of, you know, vasodilate, get your, get your veins going and open it up.

Uh, but the lines main is kind of like that. That's what I'm saying is UMO. Isn't gonna focus on em. We're we're the reason UBO was started is to help up fund unlimited sciences so we could continue these studies. Uh, I, again, am an advocate for psychedelics. We're not gonna waste our time looking at a microdosing deal when that comes around, if it comes around and it's right for ambo at the time, we'll step into it.

We'll let everybody else fight for that. I did it with can cannabis. I've done my part on the seal side and stuff. I wanna bring functional mushrooms to people. I want them to see the opportunity there and believe in those. It's kind of like, it's a whole food group that we just kind of bypassed, you know, it's like if we made vegetables, you know, alien to everybody and then try to reintroduce again, broccoli, Russell sprouts.

People are like, man, these, these don't taste fantastic. You know, there's things that you do to make 'em taste great. Right? And then you start falling in love with them, but you're not gonna take 'em and go, oh my God, I feel amazing right now, right here and now. But as you continue to eat them, I think you will.

I think you'll start feeling like your body will feel like, oh my gosh, this is something that I have been missing an entire species of fungi that we've been missing within our body. I think people will start feeling better, you know? Yeah. So that's kind of the hopes for, um, Well, I, 

[00:47:32] Boomer: I take between four and six different mushroom tinctures every single day.

And so like, I'm a big believer in the functional mushroom movement. So I'm really glad you shared that here today and really excited to see what comes of UMO for sure. Yeah. Uh, so Dell, I wanna come back to unlimited sciences as we kind of wrap up and talk a little bit more on that study because the study you're doing with Johns Hopkins is, is really important in the sense that, uh, yes, I, I love what maps is doing.

I love what Johns Hopkins is doing and all of these various, uh, figureheads in the science aspect of this. But you guys are getting real world information from people who wouldn't necessarily be sitting in a lab. So. Can you take us through the study and how somebody can participate in what that experience would be like if they choose to participate?

[00:48:27] Del: Yeah. So if everybody follows unlimited sciences on Instagram, that's where our, our LA our largest audience is. And we talk about it sometimes as far as what's happening, but basically what it is is, so you've heard of our study. You're aware that this is gonna happen. You intend on using psilocybin. So you enter into our, into our study.

What that looks like is it's basically five surveys. So the first survey is like asking you where you're at, you know, and it's a pretty, it's fairly in intense, um, you know, your background and your diet, a lot of these things that just aren't being looked at, uh, in, in other studies. And, uh, so if let's say you're gonna take psilocybin in two weeks, you say, okay, in two weeks, I'm about to take SIL on this.

Okay. 

[00:49:14] Boomer: And we're talking about a large dose here. We're 

[00:49:15] Del: not talking about micro, correct? Yes. Yes. We're looking for the more experiential doses. So microdosing is not something that we're, we're focused on. So if you're gonna do a larger dose, you know, typically over one gram, uh, to have that experience, most kind of a median range that we've seen is around 3.8, I think is what it is now, but it's, it's very preliminary right now, but anyway, larger dose, uh, Occi experience.

Where are you at with some of your, um, background past traumas? Some of the questions are fairly intense. It's pretty long survey. Uh, but we're, they're all validated measures. These are the things that we have to include to make sure that we could publish on it, uh, then cause you have, 

[00:50:01] Boomer: you have an IRB involved, right?

[00:50:03] Del: Yes. This is through Johns Hopkins. I. So an IRB is an institutional review board. What that means is that institutional review board is making sure that our study is, uh, ethical and we're not guiding people or trying to get the answers we want or whatnot. So the IRB has approved this study through Johns Hopkins, Johns Hopkins, IRB, uh, Garcia, Romeo who's, uh, absolute, um, pioneer again with Matt Johns Hopkins team.

He's our principal investigator, Roland Griffiths, and Matt Johnson's are, are part of it as well. And so, um, you get your initial survey. When you, when you say I'm going, going to enter into the study, you set, you, you have the date that you were gonna utilize. So Simon, the day that that happens, you're gonna get another survey right before your experience in the morning.

If, if you're. Do it in the morning and that's kind of asking you, where are you at today? You know, how, how are things are you still intending to using this? Okay. You utilize the still assign, you have your experience. And then within one to three days after your experience, another short survey comes up.

How is your experience in this, in this type of stuff? And then, um, let's see, several weeks later you get, uh, um, another survey following up on how the experience has been. And, and it's just kind of, it's called prospective observational research, which means we're looking at where you're at before the surveys and after the surveys.

So there's two before and there's three after up to three months after your experience, if you complete all five, then it, it really helps our numbers. Again, they're, they're, they're not. Super fun. Just kind of a it's it's just the way it is, but I, I always feel, it's kind of like, Hey, it's your way to give back if you will.

You know? 

[00:51:49] Boomer: Yeah. I, I think just with, uh, I've participated in several of these types of studies before and where it's going is it's helping people who either a, are, uh, a little bit timid to use psychedelics and you can correct me if I'm wrong here, Dell, but, um, you know, timid to use psychedelics or are looking for best practices to, to learn really what's out there.

And I, I really admire how you guys are conducting this study and you've certainly partnered with the right people, for sure. 

[00:52:19] Del: Yeah. Yeah. We, we've seen a lot of positive. There's definitely been some negative and we'll be publishing on both. We'd like to take this data and get some machine learning behind it, to kind of tease out some interesting things, but we've already seen some really wonderful, uh, data sets that, um, Just help a, a deeper understanding of what what's really happening in, in at least within the community that's participating in our study, but overall just some tremendous health benefits and health outcomes.

And, uh, I think that that's, I always say there's kind of two avenues to create the change that's necessary to decriminalize these substances. And it's either, it's either people in the white coats who say, Hey, this is safe and we've studied it. And here's the, here's the analytics and data behind that and safety profiles through academic institutes or hospitals or things of that nature.

And that's fine. And I appreciate that. But then there's also the heartfelt stories. Like the Charlotte, the little girl, having seizures, being introduced cannabis, what human, who has a heartbeat would deny that child that after she did every single thing she could, who would deny her that that's a, that's a pretty heartfelt story.

I foresee that happening in the psychedelic space where it's just gonna affect too many people. And they're gonna say, Hey, my son, daughter, you know, grandma, what has those same types of ailments? I want them to have that as an option. I always say, it's not my job to get convert people to use psychedelics.

I don't care if you use psychedelics, just don't stop other people from utilizing it. If it's not within your deal, that's not your, it's not your right to stop someone else from choosing their own path. So 

[00:54:09] Boomer: well said very well said, uh, Dell, this is incredible. I, I just wanna wrap up with a few rapid fire questions if it's okay with you, you know, you may be biased because of ambo and everything, but what's your sort of top trick for enhancing focus when you need it.

[00:54:29] Del: I, one thing for me, that's big is. Every single day, especially if I'm kind of tanking a little bit, one conscious breath, just one, I'm gonna stop everything drown out the noise. I'm gonna take one breath. It's gonna take me 15 seconds max in and out, and really be with that breath for one conscious breath.

And then usually I could kind of refocus on what I need to do. So that's what I'd say. That's something that's always with you. 

[00:55:03] Boomer: What excites you most about the health 

[00:55:05] Del: world right now? The fungi kingdom, functional mushrooms, suicide mushrooms, mushrooms as a whole, I think have a potential for health and wellness outside of our physical bodies, but for the environment, you know, micro remediation is incredibly interesting.

Uh, the fungi kingdom is what excites me most about health and, and. Total wellness, total wellness, beat earth, you know, so bunga 

[00:55:35] Boomer: kingdom, the number one book, which has impacted your life. Boy, I, 

I, 

[00:55:45] Del: I could, I could, 

[00:55:46] Boomer: you can go with a couple, I think I've had like one person say one book, so 

[00:55:51] Del: okay. Yeah. I mean, I, I would say the Omnivore's dilemma changing my perception around food, which then ultimately changed my mind around, uh, cannabis as medicine, which has led me here.

So that's a, that's an incredibly important book. Uh I'm I'm currently reading the, uh, Tibetan book of the dead, which is a very, very interesting book as well. Uh, in the sense that just taking insight from other cultures around how they handle that, that is not taught in the United States in any fashion.

Not only is it opening my mind to. The rituals around dying, but also the concept that there's ancient knowledge that we actually have to go search for. And it's just as robust as anything that we've ever been taught. And so it leads me to think, I need to learn more. So, 

[00:56:44] Boomer: yeah, I'm the same way. I'm the same way.

So Dell, where can people find out more about you, what you have going on with unlimited sciences and everything else that 

[00:56:55] Del: you're doing? I encourage people to sign up for our newsletter@unlimitedsciences.org. The reason is, is because, um, Instagram is just censoring the hell out of everybody right now.

And we don't own our Instagram and it could be shut down any day. We already know a lot of, uh, psychedelic advocates who haven't really said anything that would be legal, but so our newsletter is absolutely the best kind of, uh, way to stay in touch. Uh, unlimited sciences. The Instagram is our biggest, um, Page and, and audience there.

Um, I'm again, starting to do a lot with UMO mushrooms. You look at that on Instagram, we're, we're several months from launching just yet, but, um, I'm really excited about some of the content we'll be putting out there and how that will change my phobia. Uh, those are probably the best two channels to kind of see what, um, we're, we're up to 

[00:57:52] Boomer: amazing Dell.

Thank you for taking the time. This is, uh, look, I love what you're doing and if I do happen to, to move to Colorado, you can count on me showing up, uh, at your doorstep in your future. 

[00:58:04] Del: Yeah, you got it, man. I, this has been a real pleasure. And obviously if you do come to Colorado, uh, you gotta hit me up and we'll definitely sit down and talk some more, cuz this is, uh, a good conversation and worth having for sure.

[00:58:17] Boomer: Amazing. Thank you for everyone tuning in today. And uh, hope everyone has an after.

As I've told you guys before psychedelics have had a profound experience in my life, I've really, uh, got a lot out of it. And so this is just one of many conversations we're going to have on the podcast about it. But if you have questions you can head on over to really any sort of social media plug in decoding, superhuman, and reach out to me.

I would love to hear what you want to have covered on the future podcast episodes on this topic, but thank you today for your attention. The show notes for this one can be found@decodingsuperhuman.com slash Dell that's D E L. If you enjoyed this podcast, head on over to apple podcast and leave a five star review.

Every one of those reviews just brings, oh, such a sweet smile to my face. If you're on YouTube, click subscribe. And if you want access to the show notes, advanced notice of guests, as well as the ability to ask questions to these guests, head on over to coding, superhuman.com and join the email list.

Finally, this show does not provide any sort of medical advice. I'm not a doctor. I don't pretend to be a doctor. And if you want a physician or medical advice, it's probably best. If you go speak to a doctor, this is really just sharing information and I hope you enjoy the sharing of that information.

Thank you so much for your attention and having an absolutely 

[00:59:51] Del: excellent day.